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 Post subject: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:42 am 
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Just curious--how many readers have even passing awareness of the ratings comic books have? Are you aware Savage Dragon is rated M/Mature? M/Mature is actually the STRONGEST rating Image Comics has--it’s the rating rating Black Kiss and Sex Criminals has and, in theory, it means anything goes. Readers are supposed to be over 18.

So...would nudity suddenly being in the book freak folks out?

I've gradually upped the language with zero pushback or even notice. Are there ANY underaged Savage Dragon readers at this point? And if there are--is there anything I could possibly draw in Savage Dragon which could begin to compare with anything they might stumble across on the Internet either on purpose or by accident?

There certainly doesn't seem to be consistency across the Image Comics line (some have chosen to opt out as well). Those ratings seem to mean different things from book to book. Creators themselves decide what rating to put on their books. But it does end up with some really odd inconsistencies across the line. Some books with the same rating as another seem positively prudish. Even language use is wildly inconsistent. In some--anything goes--in others it’s super restrained and others practice the bizarre fooling-nobody method of swapping in an asterisk for a missing vowel or random letter so you end up with words like F*CK (or even more baffling: FU*K --how else COULD that possibly be pronounced?) which just seems utterly juvenile to me. And, really, who do you think you're fooling?

So, if I, say, chose to have hardcore sex in the book--in theory--that should be completely okay. The label's there--that's what it means--and readers and retailers should know that.

This has been on my mind recently as sometimes--placing convenient objects in front of naughty bits has been more than a little awkward. It seems like the illustrated equivalent of an asterisk. And, again, who are you fooling? And in all seriousness--literally every man, woman and child on earth has nipples! It’s kind of crazy that it’s censored to begin with.

It also seems super weird that we live in a world where it's almost impossible NOT to see nudity on your computer but in PRINT it's taboo.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Personally, I say go for it. I've always seen Savage Dragon as the perfect book to start collecting as a teenager and not so much as a kid. I started collecting Dragon when I was a teenger and remember loving that it offered everything that Marvel couldn't. Gore, adult language, and nearly full blown nudity all within the context of the super hero world. Most of the readers are adults at this point, so I say whatever works for you, should work for us at this point. I'm cool with it as long as its not overdone.


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 Post subject: Re: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:53 pm 
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I kind of knew from reading it that the book was rated "M" but didn't realize that Mature was the strongest rating Image had - seems like M covers a LOT of ground.

As far as the nudity thing, I say go for it - personally I find it MORE jarring when creators play "hide the naughty bit" because its usually super obvious what they are doing and takes me out of the story for that brief moment.

I mean, unless its a gag like the simpsons movie, its just silly to have to do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Might as well go for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:24 pm 
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I am all for Erik expressing himself as a writer and artist.

Normally I would say go with whatever creative impulses come to mind and we'll go along for the ride.
But, I am for the status quo for a few reasons. As it stands right now, this book does not get the attention it deserves. This book is of such high quality every single month that the fact that this does not have a larger audience is a crime. If you put nudity in the book, it will restrict younger audiences from having access. I started reading Dragon from the beginning which was 1992. I was 15 at the time and I'm now 40. There were situations that popped up like Issue 9 and Issue 17. But all the situations were tastefully rendered, had this book had nudity in it, I likely would not have had access to it at the Comix shop I went to at that point in my life. The language and politics and the fine line between depicting an adult situation and alluding to things versus laying it out there is thin. I would prefer to maintain the status quo. It has worked so far. If Erik goes in the direction of nudity than so be it. but I think it would limit a younger audience from picking up the book and while I do not have numbers to prove otherwise, cutting off accessibility to a potential audience is never good. my $0.02.

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 Post subject: Re: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:20 pm 
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BrundleFly wrote:
If Erik goes in the direction of nudity than so be it. but I think it would limit a younger audience from picking up the book and while I do not have numbers to prove otherwise, cutting off accessibility to a potential audience is never good.
It's not likely to change things at all. People buy what they buy. The book already has an M/Mature rating--it's had it for quite some time, to no ill-effect as far as I can tell. And there's no real way of comparing one way to another. It seems silly to say keep it covered for the POTENTIAL of a new reader discovering it when so few copies actually sit on the racks, unclaimed.

And, really, a million things push and pull readers. A pro-Obama cover attracts and repels readers. A Trump cover would do the same. Do I never stick my neck out ever for risk of offending readers? How safe do I need to play it?

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 Post subject: Re: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Also, I wasn't even aware that Savage Dragon was rated M, as I don't think I've ever seen that listed anywhere on the book. Then again, I wasn't really looking.

The book has had pretty much everything, but the kitchen sink in it, so why not go all out? Hell, 220 pretty much had a vagina shot on page 13. Earth Girl hade her breast shown in a panel in issue 69, and we have been on the border of full fledged nudity numerous times in the books 20 plus years.

Again, I don't think you'll get much push back from most of the readers especially towards the women characters to be perfectly honest. However, I could see some flack happening if there are constant dong shots. It's a double standard, but that's just the way it is when your main audience is male.

Either way, at this point I actually hope we see it instead of cover up shots.


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 Post subject: Re: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:22 am 
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The future lead of the book is born out of a threesome. At this point, I think a few nipple shots won't harm. And yeah, the Austin Powers bit gets old real quick.

Plus, I know Dragon doesn't get published much in other countries, but let's just mention it for argument's sake : in many other places, manga is still going strong, and they have had full frontal nudity in their shonen titles since the 70s. France or Italy never had to have an alternate Dragon Ball print with Bulma's tits removed or hidden. Party poopers are generally much less organized than in the States. And in some places, it's the violence that would make SD an adults only book anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:08 am 
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We've had full frontal nudity in the book since Baby Boom's tiny baby penis was seen. Ha!

I don't really care about nudity in comics for titillation purposes but considering how often Malcolm's or Dragon's shirts get torn off in battle, it's odd that it rarely happens to the women and when it does there's a convenient flag or rock or whatever to cover up with. Jennifer's costume DID suffer that fate and had a bit of a nipslip back in SD 46. So that kind of thing or couples hanging out together or whatever, why not?

I don't feel especially inclined to want to see Malcolm unleash the Incredible Hulk though. Heh.

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 Post subject: Re: Should/could there be nudity in Savage Dragon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:20 am 
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Savage Dragon IS one of the only books where it could work. I mean, you started it a long time ago with some panels and right now with the happy threesome you made it even more adult, so its nothing totally new for SD.

Just dont overdo it. The threesome thing was a bit too much in its lenght. It was tediuos after a while, but no big thing. This stuff always comes with a price, the reader gets used to it and next time he needs more of that. Read "Faust" (the comic book) the first few issues were shocking, and after a while it was just normal.

Use it in spare moments and it will work. I mean it works in "Sex" from Joe Casey.

And there always will be someone crying when you change things, especially to nude/porn stuff.


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