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 Post subject: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:55 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:46 am 
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That's pretty cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:48 pm 
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Dang! I saw the guy in a hat ranting about "lying commie ball-lickers," and mistakenly assumed it was Frank Miller.


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 Post subject: Re: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:40 am 
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Red Doc Manhattan? Priceless.


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 Post subject: Re: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:28 pm 
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HA that was pretty cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:58 am 
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Larsen tweets --

Quote:
Come on -- in all honesty -- don't you folks working on Before Watchmen feel just a little bit ditry? How can you not?


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Yeah, yeah, Moore signed a shitty contracy. Does that make it right?


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Saying Moore writes books featuring characters inthe the public domain is a shitty counter argument. The creators are long dead.


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The closest thing to hypocricy on Moore's part is that Siegel and Shuster singed a shitty contract and he didn't hesitate to write Superman


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Bur Siegel and Shuster weren't telling people not to write Superman when they were alive. They were just pissed they didn't have equity


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Some really good people are working on Before Watchmen and it saddens me to see that. I won't be supporting it in any way. I just can't.


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And in all honesty -- I can't help but feel a little bit less for every creator who works on these books. Have you no decency?


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 Post subject: Re: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:08 am 
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Larsen wrote:
Yeah, yeah, Moore signed a shitty contracy. Does that make it right?

Um... yes?

If you have something you want to sell me or have a business deal you'd like to make with me -- the contract is where we dictate the terms of that arrangement. If either of us feels any of the terms are unfair, we have the right to simply back out of the arrangement. The contract is essentially saying, "I agree to this. This is the deal I made."

To use an analogy I have before, if you buy land from someone on the cheap (with all mineral rights), then you strike gold on that land five years later, the original seller is entitled to none of it. He agreed to the terms when he sold the land -- if he wanted to make sure he got some of that gold, he should have put it in the contract he agreed to sign.

Alan is a very smart person who came into comics after seeing what happened with Siegel & Shuster and Jack Kirby, so it wasn't really a case of a wide-eyed teenager eager to sell his first work.

With Kirby, Siegel, etc. I tend to feel badly for them -- it's hard to catch lightning in a bottle and watching a company make millions upon millions on your idea because you were young and you messed up must be agonizing. But while they have my sympathy, I do think a deal's a deal -- DC and Marvel took a gamble on publishing their ideas, they agreed to the terms when they began work for them, and in the end -- they made their own beds.

And to go to the flip side, it's not like we expect creators to give back their paychecks if a book totally flops and the publisher loses his shirt.

So, I feel bad for these guys but -- a deal's a deal. I don't think they got "screwed" unless they were somehow tricked into signing those contracts -- but from all indications, they weren't. They made a bad deal all on their own. The only one I think ever got "screwed" was Kirby when they tried to make him sign some special contract in order for him receive his original art, his rightful property, that no other creators had to sign.

And once you make a deal and the publisher lives up to their end of the bargain and gives you all the agreed upon compensation -- they owe you nothing, legally and ethically.

Back to the land analogy -- wouldn't you be pissed if you bought everything fair and square, lived up to your end of the deal, invested money into finding oil, found that oil, and then the original land owner comes back and want to reclaim it or get a sizable chunk of the profits you make from it?

DC isn't evil, they're just exercising rights that Moore knowingly agreed to. He made a bad deal but I can't blame the guy for not predicting his book would change the way the industry does business -- but I also can't blame DC for making the most of the deal they got either.

At some point, a deal's a deal, no? Don't sign if you don't agree to the terms.


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 Post subject: Re: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:43 am 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Alan is a very smart person who came into comics after seeing what happened with Siegel & Shuster and Jack Kirby, so it wasn't really a case of a wide-eyed teenager eager to sell his first work.

Except that this was a new kind of deal, one that hadn't been previously tried before, and it was hailed throughout the industry and comics community as a victory for creator rights. And this was on top of the vast steps forward that had already been made since the '40s and the '60s. So while Moore definitely should have been more careful, his belief that DC would keep their word wasn't an entirely unreasonable expectation to hold at that time.


Hanzo the Razor wrote:
And once you make a deal and the publisher lives up to their end of the bargain and gives you all the agreed upon compensation -- they owe you nothing, legally and ethically.

But the publisher didn't live up to their end of the bargain. You're correct that DC might be in the clear legally, but ethically? They reneged on their promise to allow the rights to revert to the creators. How is that not unethical?


Hanzo the Razor wrote:
At some point, a deal's a deal, no? Don't sign if you don't agree to the terms.

No, a deal isn't just a deal. Plenty of contracts are bullshit. Plenty of contracts are illegal-- meaning that even though people signed and agreed to terms, they don't have to honor them-- by law. Not saying that's what happened with Watchman, just trying to make the point that signing on the dotted line is not the ultimate determination of what's legal or ethical.

Is there any circumstance where you would agree that preventing exploitation is more important than contractual agreement?


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 Post subject: Re: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:03 am 
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On a very basic human level--it's wrong. Here's a guy we all respect. Here's a piece of work which is very revered. He's already not getting back the work which he had expected to get back. He asks that DC not do more stories with his characters. Respect his fucking wishes.

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 Post subject: Re: Watchmen 2 PREVIEW
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:14 am 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but in broad strokes Alan Moore gets the rights back to Watchmen if Watchmen ever goes out of print (which is unlikely as its continually the best selling GN of all time).

I wonder what that means for the Before Watchmen material if that ever happens (ha). Also, if DC owns the Watchmen trademark. And if they do, even if Moore gets the copyright to his work back, will he ever be able to publish it again under its proper name.

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