Watchmen 2 PREVIEW

Hanzo the Razor · **Joined:** Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:19 pm **Posts:** 1140

Adam O. Pruett wrote:

Hanzo the Razor wrote:

Alan is a very smart person who came into comics after seeing what happened with Siegel & Shuster and Jack Kirby, so it wasn't really a case of a wide-eyed teenager eager to sell his first work.

Except that this was a new kind of deal, one that hadn't been previously tried before, and it was hailed throughout the industry and comics community as a victory for creator rights. And this was on top of the vast steps forward that had already been made since the '40s and the '60s. So while Moore definitely should have been more careful, his belief that DC would keep their word wasn't an entirely unreasonable expectation to hold at that time.

Hanzo the Razor wrote:

And once you make a deal and the publisher lives up to their end of the bargain and gives you all the agreed upon compensation -- they owe you nothing, legally and ethically.

But the publisher didn't live up to their end of the bargain. You're correct that DC might be in the clear legally, but ethically? They reneged on their promise to allow the rights to revert to the creators. How is that not unethical??

This is news to me. If they're following what was written in the contract, how are they not living up to their word? I thought the deal was that when the book goes out of print, Moore gets it back -- if it's profitable enough to merit being re-printed, then Dc is just doing what the agreement was, no?

Hanzo the Razor · **Joined:** Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:19 pm **Posts:** 1140

Erik Larsen wrote:

On a very basic human level--it's wrong. Here's a guy we all respect. Here's a piece of work which is very revered. He's already not getting back the work which he had expected to get back.

Then why did he sign that deal? If he really wanted Watchmen back, he should have said "no" to their terms and demanded a time-based reversion clause -- after 10 year, after 20 years, the copyright reverts back to him.

Erik Larsen wrote:

He asks that DC not do more stories with his characters. Respect his fucking wishes.

Why is it not okay to do Watchmen -- but okay to do Superman, Fantastic Four, and every other property where the creator feels he was screwed? Does Moore command a level of respect that Jack Kirby doesn't?

JayWicky · **Joined:** Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:05 am **Posts:** 431

All moral issues aside -- doing more issues of Superman or Fantastic Four makes sense, because they were always conceived as ongoing stories with no end in sight.

Watchmen was conceived as a finite story, with all the necessary bits covered, whether from the past or present. Doing a prequel or a sequel to it makes about as much sense as Titanic II : Phantom Jack's Zany Adventures in the Lost City of Atlantis.

That's pretty much what Caio's parody is about, I think.

Erik Larsen · **Joined:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:39 am **Posts:** 1103

Hanzo the Razor wrote:

Erik Larsen wrote:

On a very basic human level--it's wrong. Here's a guy we all respect. Here's a piece of work which is very revered. He's already not getting back the work which he had expected to get back.

Then why did he sign that deal? If he really wanted Watchmen back, he should have said "no" to their terms and demanded a time-based reversion clause -- after 10 year, after 20 years, the copyright reverts back to him.

The thing is--or was--that at that point no collected comic book had ever been kept in print continuously. Nothing had such steady, enduring demand that it was kept around forever. So the clause simply didn't seem that serious. It would be like a putting a stuck by lightning clause in there--it just didn't seem possible.

Hanzo the Razor wrote:

Erik Larsen wrote:

He asks that DC not do more stories with his characters. Respect his fucking wishes.

Why is it not okay to do Watchmen -- but okay to do Superman, Fantastic Four, and every other property where the creator feels he was screwed? Does Moore command a level of respect that Jack Kirby doesn't?

Did Jack Kirby ask other creators not to work on the Fantastic Four? Did Siegel and Shuster ask for that with Superman? Were those finite stories with a beginning, middle and end? That's actually the closest Moore comes to being hypocritical. He had no hesitation working on Superman, after all. But it's not the same kind of deal at all.

Dave Busters · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:55 pm

JayWicky wrote:

Doing a prequel or a sequel to it makes about as much sense as Titanic II : Phantom Jack's Zany Adventures in the Lost City of Atlantis.

Now that's a sequel I'd definitely pay good money to see! :lol:

Hanzo the Razor · **Joined:** Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:19 pm **Posts:** 1140

Erik Larsen wrote:

Hanzo the Razor wrote:

Erik Larsen wrote:

On a very basic human level--it's wrong. Here's a guy we all respect. Here's a piece of work which is very revered. He's already not getting back the work which he had expected to get back.

Then why did he sign that deal? If he really wanted Watchmen back, he should have said "no" to their terms and demanded a time-based reversion clause -- after 10 year, after 20 years, the copyright reverts back to him.

The thing is--or was--that at that point no collected comic book had ever been kept in print continuously. Nothing had such steady, enduring demand that it was kept around forever. So the clause simply didn't seem that serious. It would be like a putting a stuck by lightning clause in there--it just didn't seem possible.

Right, I know of the clause and I get that this was unanticipated -- but the clause was there and Moore did agree to it. I really feel for him and think this project reeks of creative bankruptcy... but DC and the creators involved aren't doing anything wrong by playing by the rules both sides agreed to up front.

Hanzo the Razor wrote:

Erik Larsen wrote:

He asks that DC not do more stories with his characters. Respect his fucking wishes.

Why is it not okay to do Watchmen -- but okay to do Superman, Fantastic Four, and every other property where the creator feels he was screwed? Does Moore command a level of respect that Jack Kirby doesn't?

Did Jack Kirby ask other creators not to work on the Fantastic Four? Did Siegel and Shuster ask for that with Superman? Were those finite stories with a beginning, middle and end? That's actually the closest Moore comes to being hypocritical. He had no hesitation working on Superman, after all. But it's not the same kind of deal at all.[/quote]
I never suggested Moore was hypocritical but in all cases concerned, the companies involved were cutting the creators out of their creations -- whether it be creative control or royalties. I personally think Jack got a much worse deal than Alan, with Marvel trying to force him into signing some bullshit contract for the return of property they had neither a ethical or a legal right to... but people still felt it was okay to work with Marvel despite they f**king over the company he built.

Hanzo the Razor · **Joined:** Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:19 pm **Posts:** 1140

JayWicky wrote:

All moral issues aside -- doing more issues of Superman or Fantastic Four makes sense, because they were always conceived as ongoing stories with no end in sight.

Watchmen was conceived as a finite story, with all the necessary bits covered, whether from the past or present. Doing a prequel or a sequel to it makes about as much sense as Titanic II : Phantom Jack's Zany Adventures in the Lost City of Atlantis.

That's pretty much what Caio's parody is about, I think.

I agree with this completely -- I think this is a pathetic attempt to cash in on one of the few properties they haven't already milked dry.

I'm just saying there's nothing ethically wrong with a company using the right granted by a contract that both parties agreed to... or for creators who don't agree with Moore to work on a property that he lost by a deal he made himself.

I love Alan Moore's work and think he seems like a great guy overall -- far and away my favorite writer and second only to the team of Lee & Kirby as a creator in this medium in my book.

But if Moore doesn't like how this has played out, he has only himself to blame since he had the power to reject terms he didn't agree to and just back out of any deal he didn't feel comfortable with.

Grant · **Joined:** Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:19 am **Posts:** 353

JayWicky wrote:

Watchmen was conceived as a finite story, with all the necessary bits covered, whether from the past or present. Doing a prequel or a sequel to it makes about as much sense as Titanic II : Phantom Jack's Zany Adventures in the Lost City of Atlantis.

That's still a hundred times more interesting then Before Watchmen.

If DC is intent on exploiting Alan Moore creations why don't they do anything with the ABC characters?

Erik Larsen · **Joined:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:39 am **Posts:** 1103

Hanzo the Razor wrote:

I love Alan Moore's work and think he seems like a great guy overall -- far and away my favorite writer and second only to the team of Lee & Kirby as a creator in this medium in my book.

But if Moore doesn't like how this has played out, he has only himself to blame since he had the power to reject terms he didn't agree to and just back out of any deal he didn't feel comfortable with.

I don't disagree and certainly it is in DC's legal right to exploit the property--that was never my argument. My argument is simply that it's a shitty thing to do and that I don't see how a person who respects the book and Alan can work on the book, against his wishes, without feeling dirty about doing it.

Erik Larsen · **Joined:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:39 am **Posts:** 1103

And for those who cry that "Watchmen is simply the Charlton characters slightly tweaked"--I say, fine--then go ahead and let those creators do their own version of the Charlton characters. Let them do "Before Charlton" and try and make that a success. Why not make those characters commercially viable instead of screwing with the story Alan told? It would be a win-win for everybody. DC would have a group of viable characters to exploit and they wouldn't be shitting all over Watchmen.

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